tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11805401.post1956140445357758290..comments2024-03-16T08:21:16.037-04:00Comments on The DiaTribe: Tomahawks Flying into the FuturePaul Cousineauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03490622970961409253noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11805401.post-73851086480572241272008-08-15T20:13:00.000-04:002008-08-15T20:13:00.000-04:00Not at all PC...the more insight the better.Not at all PC...the more insight the better.Rockdawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15392724225649893240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11805401.post-36070322034300032592008-08-15T16:30:00.000-04:002008-08-15T16:30:00.000-04:00RD,I'm right there with you in the frustration and...RD,<BR/>I'm right there with you in the frustration and realizing the importance of taking the time to take that step back.<BR/>Didn't mean to look like I was pouncing.Paul Cousineauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03490622970961409253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11805401.post-42468257668736764002008-08-15T14:19:00.000-04:002008-08-15T14:19:00.000-04:00Didn't see the "Ex-Files" article, I just decided ...Didn't see the "Ex-Files" article, I just decided to do some research (albeit not much) into the situation, b/c I got sick of seeing some of these guys winning games for teams in pennant races on SC every day. I guess my point was to not "give up" on some of the guys we have now just yet (Marte, Garko, Gutz) even though instinct says to do just that.<BR/><BR/>I agree with selling high on a guy like Show-Pac, but I would consult the Baltamorian before moving Francisco, as the B-Morian is rooting for him as if he were Sandy Alomar(?)Rockdawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15392724225649893240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11805401.post-64853300321094305542008-08-15T13:27:00.000-04:002008-08-15T13:27:00.000-04:00RD,You’re not off on what the overall net return i...RD,<BR/>You’re not off on what the overall net return is for those players, but look at the transaction logs for the players you list and count how many teams’ hands some of these guys passed through AFTER leaving Cleveland:<BR/><BR/>RYAN LUDWICK <BR/>July 18, 2003: Traded by the Texas Rangers to the Cleveland Indians for Ricardo Rodriguez and Shane Spencer. <BR/>December 14, 2005: Signed as a Free Agent with the Detroit Tigers. <BR/>December 18, 2006: Signed as a Free Agent with the St. Louis Cardinals. <BR/><BR/>BRANDON PHILLIPS <BR/>June 27, 2002: Traded by the Montreal Expos with Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Lee Stevens to the Cleveland Indians for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew. <BR/>April 7, 2006: Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the Cincinnati Reds for a player to be named later. The Cincinnati Reds sent Jeff Stevens (minors) (June 13, 2006) to the Cleveland Indians to complete the trade. <BR/><BR/>KEVIN KOUZMANOFF <BR/>June 3, 2003: Drafted by the Cleveland Indians in the 6th round of the 2003 amateur draft. Player signed June 3, 2003. <BR/>November 8, 2006: Traded by the Cleveland Indians with Andrew Brown to the San Diego Padres for Josh Barfield. <BR/><BR/>JEREMY GUTHRIE <BR/>June 4, 2002: Drafted by the Cleveland Indians in the 1st round (22nd pick) of the 2002 amateur draft. Player signed October 3, 2002. <BR/>January 29, 2007: Selected off waivers by the Baltimore Orioles from the Cleveland Indians. <BR/><BR/>JODY GERUT <BR/>June 2, 2001: Traded by the Colorado Rockies with Josh Bard to the Cleveland Indians for Jacob Cruz. <BR/>July 18, 2005: Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the Chicago Cubs for Jason Dubois.<BR/>July 31, 2005: Traded by the Chicago Cubs with cash to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Matt Lawton.<BR/>March, 2007: Released by Chicago Cubs.<BR/>January 21, 2008: Signed to Minor-League Contract by San Diego Padres.<BR/><BR/>MILTON BRADLEY <BR/>July 31, 2001: Traded by the Montreal Expos to the Cleveland Indians for Zach Day. April 3, 2004: Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the Los Angeles Dodgers for a player to be named later and Franklin Gutierrez. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent Andrew Brown (May 19, 2004) to the Cleveland Indians to complete the trade. <BR/>December 13, 2005: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers with Antonio Perez to the Oakland Athletics for Andre Ethier. <BR/>June 29, 2007: Traded by the Oakland Athletics (after being DFA’d on 6-21-07) to the San Diego Padres for Andrew Brown.<BR/>December, 2007: Signed as a Free Agent with the Texas Rangers.<BR/><BR/>JOE INGLETT<BR/>June 5, 2000: Drafted by the Cleveland Indians in the 8th round of the 2000 amateur draft. Player signed June 9, 2000.<BR/>September 15, 2007: Selected off waivers by the Toronto Blue Jays from the Cleveland Indians. <BR/><BR/>ANDREW BROWN<BR/>May 19, 2004: Sent by the Los Angeles Dodgers to the Cleveland Indians to complete an earlier deal made on April 3, 2004. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent a player to be named later and Franklin Gutierrez to the Cleveland Indians for Milton Bradley. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent Andrew Brown (May 19, 2004) to the Cleveland Indians to complete the trade. <BR/>November 8, 2006: Traded by the Cleveland Indians with Kevin Kouzmanoff to the San Diego Padres for Josh Barfield. <BR/>June 29, 2007: Traded by the San Diego Padres to the Oakland Athletics for Milton Bradley (minors) and cash. <BR/><BR/>CHAD DURBIN<BR/>February 17, 2003: Signed as a Free Agent with the Cleveland Indians. <BR/>August 31, 2004: Selected off waivers by the Arizona Diamondbacks from the Cleveland Indians. <BR/>December 23, 2004: Signed as a Free Agent with the Washington Nationals. <BR/>November 14, 2005: Signed as a Free Agent with the Detroit Tigers. <BR/>December 30, 2007: Signed as a Free Agent with the Philadelphia Phillies.<BR/>__________<BR/><BR/>It’s true that Phillips, Guthrie, Kouzmanoff, and Inglett are all on the same team that they joined immediately after the Indians, but the way that those 3 players (I’m not counting Inglett because he is what he is and there’s no use giving him a second thought) left, and under what circumstances has been covered ad nauseum. <BR/>Not given enough chances (Guthrie), possible misevaluation coming back (K2), personality clashes (B-Phil)…they’re gone.<BR/><BR/>The rest of those guys are on their 3rd or 4th (!) team AFTER leaving Cleveland, so it’s not as if the Indians are the ONLY team to “miss” on these guys. For various reasons (injuries with Ludwick and Gerut, clinical insanity with Bradley, etc.), these guys moved around quite a bit before finding some success this year. More power to them, but lamenting the loss of some of these guys is bordering on the irrational, particularly when you go back to what was thought (by almost all of us) when these moves were made.<BR/><BR/>It’s tough watching Gutierrez and Marte struggle through the year, but thinking that Ludwick (a solid FIVE years after he left) or Durbin (FOUR years and FOUR organizations later) are “ones that got away” isn’t a fair assessment of how decisions are made, particularly at the time they’re made.<BR/><BR/>The truth is that most teams could do this with the players that they’ve lost, just based on the sheer volume of players that pass through organizations every year and those that have that one comeback or magical season that gives their career a pick-me-up.<BR/><BR/>I think if there is one problem that needs to be rectified, it would be a better evaluation of certain players’ ceilings. That is, if Franklin Gutz or Garko has a great 2007 and his trade value is high – the Indians need to sell high on those guys, as opposed to getting pennies on the dollar for them if the prevailing thought is that players aren’t going to progress much more.<BR/><BR/>Does this affect a guy like a Shoppach or Francisco for the offseason?<BR/>They sure sold high on Blake and I wouldn’t be surprised if they used some of their new-found depth at the upper levels to be more active in the trade market to plug holes that way instead of venturing into FA.<BR/><BR/>Sorry if that got long, but the PD had something they printed a week ago called “The Ex-Files” that really riled me up about this topic as it took such a one-sided approach (not that you did, Rock) that it seemed to purposely paint the organization as idiots without including all of the pertinent information.Paul Cousineauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03490622970961409253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11805401.post-35568142422003110672008-08-15T10:47:00.000-04:002008-08-15T10:47:00.000-04:00While looking at these stat-lines, my first reacti...While looking at these stat-lines, my first reaction, time and time again, is "Get this guy outta here already." But lately, I have been noticing a growing list of former Tribsman that we gave up on too quickly, and now they are above average players, all-star candidates, even legitamate MVP candidates. <BR/><BR/>PTC, you are more versed on trades and releases than I, so if my facts are off, feel free to correct...But it seems to me that we have recently parted ways with:<BR/> <BR/><BR/>RYAN LUDWICK - (.304/30 HR/90 RBI)<BR/>BRANDON PHILLIPS - (18 HR/.458 SLG)<BR/>KEVIN KOUZMANOFF - (18 HR/.460 SLG)<BR/>JEREMY GUTHRIE (who was given ONLY ONE ML start while with the Tribe) - (3.18 ERA/1.15 WHIP)<BR/>JODY GERUT - (.289 AVG/.822 OPS)<BR/>MILTON BRADLEY - (.320 AVG/1.035 OPS/20 HR/63 RBI)<BR/>JOE INGLETT - (.293 AVG/.348 OBP)<BR/>ANDREW BROWN - (3.09 ERA/1.25 WHIP)<BR/>CHAD DURBIN - (2.15 ERA/1.19 WHIP)<BR/><BR/>These players are not all All-Stars, but that is A LOT of production that we have let go, and these are just names off the top of my head (not the stats though, that would be crazy). <BR/><BR/>Now, I lose track of what we got for certain players as compensation, but from what I can tell, the return we got for these players is: <BR/>JEFF STEVENS, JOSH BARFIELD, JASON DUBOIS, and FRANKLIN GUTIERREZ.<BR/><BR/>PTC...or anybody, PLEASE tell me that we got a better return than this. If this is correct, is it a case that we weren't patient enough? Were these players not properly coached in Cleveland? Is Shapiro and company really not THAT good at evaluating future talent?<BR/><BR/>C'mon Browns....Let's get this mother started atlready!!!Rockdawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15392724225649893240noreply@blogger.com